Season 7, Episode 5, Betsy de Thierry on Why We Should Stop Calling Everything Trauma

Join Dr Lisa Cherry in conversation with Betsy de Thiery about why vague trauma language creates real harm, from shallow training to rising shame for people living with complex trauma. We argue for clearer definitions, better role boundaries in services and a return to community and connection as the foundation for recovery.

RESOURCES:

Trauma Recovery-UK, which is a highly specialised therapy centre charity for children and their families who have experienced trauma. www.trc-uk.org 

Trauma Recovery Global https://www.traumarecoveryglobal.com/

Amazon links to books: 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Betsy-de-Thierry/author/B07BB398RW?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1776341282&sr=1-1&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:04

This is the Trauma Resonance Resilience Podcast. And this is for you if you are interested in compassion, connection, and relationships and how we can all work together creating services that do not add to harm but rather seek to support recovery from it. I'm your host, Lisa Cherry, and this is your time to sit back and listen in on conversations that make a difference.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Here we are on the Resisting Trauma series, and I have the wonderful Betsy DeThieri with me this time, and we're going to be exploring what happens when terminology is diluted to the point where it becomes really problematic. Do you know what? I'm not going to introduce you, Betsy. Betsy, I'd like you to introduce yourself. You can use one word, two words, five words, whatever you fancy. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I actually struggled to do this myself. Um I am Betsy. I am an author. I've I believe I have nine books published, four chapters and some stuff all around trauma. Trauma recovery is my thing. Um I'm a psychotherapist and have been now because I'm 53. I have been that for a long, long, long time. I was originally um a primary school teacher because I wanted to be an educational psychologist, and then I changed my mind and just have the both together. I'm a mum of four sons, two are married, two aren't. And one's only 17, so he's still at home doing A levels.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

So I didn't know that about you. I didn't know that you had been a primary school teacher who wanted to be um an ed psych. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah. Well, I didn't really know. I didn't know what an ed psych really was. I just thought that would combine working with children that weren't happy in school. And then I found out that it didn't. So I did a different training while I was doing my um teaching degree at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you. And it is hard actually when people say to me, you know, would you like to introduce yourself? It's like, I don't really know how to how to do that quickly. And I think there must be something about um getting to a place in your 50s where like, where do you start when you've been on the planet for a little while? Um But listen, I'm really glad we're having this conversation. And me, you and Karen Traisman actually had a very similar conversation uh a few years ago now.

Has Trauma Language Gotten Worse

SPEAKER_02 2:40

And I'm wondering, um, for for any of the listeners who who watched and listened to that, uh, where we look we started unpicking this overuse of the word trauma and of trauma-informed practice. I'm wondering, do you think things have got better or worse? What do you think's happened since then?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

I would say that it's it's hard to say. I would say that it's mostly got worse with pockets of better. Oh, I like that. Yes, I think the pockets of better are how many people now are interested in understanding trauma and understanding the impact of trauma. That has to be celebrated, that has to be a relief. Um, but it's got worse, I think, because there hasn't been clarity on the language, exactly as we're looking at. There just hasn't been clarity on the language. So the word trauma, I often use the example that trauma's like the word sick. And if you go to the doctor and you say you feel sick, the first thing they're going to say is, Well, can you tell me more? And what we've done really is we're doing training on being sick, which which doesn't quite work because there's a lot of nuance to the possible sickness that we might be having. Um, and that's the only way I've managed to ever explain how frustrating it is, because I'm all about recovery, and to be to be recovery focused, we need to know what's going on in detail so that we can actually see the impact of what's happened begin to be undone.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

I like that analogy, actually. I think it works really, really well. So, in that

Defining Trauma Versus Stress

SPEAKER_02 4:20

case, then, how do you define trauma in your clinical work? And maybe it's worth kind of unpicking what distinguishes it from stress, adversity, or discomfort? Because that's the department, isn't it? In all of those things. So, how do you distinguish trauma from those things?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Well, first of all, my definition is an experience of terror, powerlessness, and overwhelm. Um, and how I explain those are terror is not just fear, like you know, I fear I haven't got a suntan yet, um, because I've missed the sun. That's not really fear, it's not gripping my nervous system and my body, it's just it's a funny feeling. Um, terror grips your nervous system, terror grips so many areas of your life. And so the first word is terror. I think that's a really important one. The second word um is intentionally the word powerless, and that helps us understand the difference between the impact of trauma on a child or an adult. Because powerlessness is actually what children naturally are, and so if you're terrified and powerless, um then we know that there will be impact to that because children naturally need someone to go to, somebody to defend them, somebody to protect them. And so powerlessness indicates that they weren't able to find that. And then the third word leads on to that, which is overwhelm, and that's that sense of oh goodness, as a child, I'm now carrying this overwhelming sense of this terrifying thing happened. I couldn't do anything about it, and now I feel utterly overwhelmed. And that's when I use the kind of illustration of a bucket wanting to spill out everywhere because they're just totally overwhelmed, which helps us then understand how that's different to adult trauma, because again, people want to put all of that in the same bracket. But actually, if an adult has been traumatized, but as a child they didn't experience terror, powerlessness, and overwhelm, then they have more capacity to process their trauma because they've had good relational foundations, and so we all know, don't we, that their neurobiology and their nervous system are a little bit more secure as a good foundation to be able to process their adult trauma. Whereas if a child has been traumatized and they were terrified, powerlessness, and powerless and overwhelmed, and then they're an adult and they haven't had the opportunity to recover from those things, then the adult traumatic experience kind of explodes, the childhood experience, and the two kind of collide, and the coping mechanisms often double down, and everything just gets significantly worse. And that's often not differentiated, which frustrates me intensely.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah, and that's the key, isn't it? Because you can, of course, experience trauma as a child and heal and recover from it, and then experience trauma as an adult. And I guess I'm drawing on my own experience here. Um, and it's something I've talked a lot about in training, you know, being trauma and being traumatized. And I've used my um the example of uh cancer and some of the medical intrusions I've had that were traumatic, um, but not traumatizing. And I think that's really important, isn't it? That kind of thinking about uh because I did have that overwhelm as a child, I did have those experiences. Um so I think it's really important that in that differentiation, there is opposite there is there is potential. There is potential for having the capacity to deal with whatever life is going to throw at you as an adult.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Absolutely, which is why, you know, the headline on my LinkedIn and things is trauma recovery is possible. Because I think it is, and I also have a story where it is, and and I think you know, there are so many people that could tell the story where it is, and that's what's so hopeful about this. And and I guess really that's what's so frustrating about the current language, which within it comes with a little bit, and this sounds wildly judgmental, and I don't mean to be, because obviously everybody within the the large sound is an individual, but there seems to be a sound of kind of victim mentality, a little bit of you know, oh, but we've we're all in the same mess, we've all we've all been traumatized, we're all struggling, and I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, no, because that's like all of us saying we're all sick, so we might as well lie down and die. But actually, there's so much hope, there's so much possibility, but it does start in my understanding at the point of assessment. We have to recovery pathway, is only possible with some sense of assessment of what has happened, not what's wrong with you, but what's happened to you, and what can we unpick within that, where there are some resilient places, there's really strong places, but there's some places where you keep end up being harmed and hurt, and that's wrong, and that never should have happened. But within that, let's see whether we can facilitate some kind of recovery.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah, and and I'm always amazed really at how internalized the message of hopelessness uh happens for people. Um, and I guess it would be another podcast to unpick how and why that happens. But I remember years ago um doing a little video thing. It was probably during COVID because I was bouncing around just trying to connect, connect, connect. I was doing lots of stuff online, doing little videos, and I did one about, you know, along the lines of recovery is possible, you know, we've got to get away from this. It was very, very embedded in a very deterministic period in this conversation that we've been having um over the last I would say 15 years, and that determinism that somehow if you've had those really bad experiences, that that's it. And and people were writing to me going, Oh my god, that's so hopeful. I didn't realize. I just thought, wow, of course you can heal and recover. Absolutely. I mean, within that, I think I have met people for whom that is an incredibly challenging and difficult journey, and I have met people who didn't make it. Yeah, so that's also has to be held alongside the hopefulness, I think.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, no, I agree.

Recovery Is Possible With Assessment

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I and I think actually, so in in my in my trauma definition, I have a trauma continuum, which is type one on one end, type three on the other, and type two in the middle, and type one is single incident traumas, and usually the differentiation of again there is that in type one you can use words, and usually somebody will have empathy immediately, they'll be quite kind to you. And you know, in big meetings, if you say a type one experience, like which is a one-off experience, and they're dreadful things, it's not a hierarchy, but it but it's something like a car crash. You know, one of my sons had one, and it really was horrific, it was just the worst thing ever. He was in hospital, he almost died. So they're awful experiences, but you do have language and you do have a sense of connection immediately with people, and there generally isn't shame. In type two, it's something where there is more shame, and there is more, I don't know how to put it together. In type three, it's even worse. So it's I say it's a bit like a plate that cuts in half on type one, and and that's awful, but you can start put it together with nice gold glue. In two, it's fragmented more, and by three, it's really hard to put it together and takes a lot more effort. And all of those, I think, is difficult to recover from trauma. I don't think any of them you can say, Oh, yeah, it's fine. It's really hard, it's hard work. You have to be intentional, and there's horrible memories and horrible emotions and things that we'd all rather deny ever happened. It's all awful. It's not like, hooray, trauma recovery is possible. It's like, ah, trauma recovery is possible, but we can do it together.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Yeah, and it takes years, you know. And I think that can be really confronting for the services and systems because they want to see the fruits of their labor, right? So they want to see this input that I've made, this thing that happened. And of course, that's not actually what happens because you you you may well just be seed planting, and um that person will reflect and remember, and you're you're part of a continuous journey, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and actually, and that's where it's it's hope-filled again, because actually all of our faces count. All of our little interactions count. We might not be the main cheerleader of the person recovering from trauma, but just any small interaction where our faces don't look cross and and we do hold hope for them can actually shift their sense of hopelessness into a little bit more hope, which is I think it's great. We all get to play, we all get a part to play in some capacity. It's not about who's trained and who's not in that place. All of our interactions matter.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

That's just such a powerful point for people to hold on to. So, what is it that we lose um when the terminology around trauma is used too broadly? What are you seeing sort of professionally and socially?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Um, I think hope. I think I think any sense of recovery because

Trauma Continuum And Long Recovery

SPEAKER_00 13:45

it it becomes universal that you know, I won't say which particular course, but lots of people do a half a day course where they come out and go, yeah, I've got it now. I can do grounding exercises, I can do some nice breathing, and I understand that it's also in the body, and so you know, I can get people to move a bit, so I'm done. I understand trauma and the deep sense of frustration about the lack of understanding, particularly for me. I'm I'm I'm uh fascinated in the subconscious. That's what I absolutely love, that kind of hidden dark place that we can't see, but we see in behaviors and reactions and emotions that seem to come from nowhere. That's what I love, and yet that's so ignored, really. And we can't afford to ignore it, but we are ignoring it quite often if we're talking about trauma that sometimes doesn't have that subconscious impact because it was a one-off, it was a moment, it was a it was a difficult encounter, but actually it stayed within a nervous system that was activated, but then actually came back down again and a relationship that felt uncomfortable but with a good latte, you kind of was like, Oh, it's all right. And that's not the same as long-term relational, shame-based violation of the human soul, which which has long-term impact on on not one level, not two, but on so many domains of our humanity. And until we understand that level of complexity, we're simplifying it, which actually brings increased shame to those who are most who are most harmed, those who are most suffering.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Where have you seen the concept of trauma being stretched or diluted in public discourse the most?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Uh if I'm honest, I think on people advertising their trauma training. If I'm really honest, and I look and and and I don't know yet. Sometimes I want to text people like you and go, what should we do? Because I don't know how to interact in a kind and um compassionate and loving, considerable considerable way. I I I I don't know what to say because it's so hard when you don't know what you don't know. But none of us know what we don't know. We only know what we know. Indeed. Absolutely. But how do you how do you say to somebody, oh Poppet, that looks great, but you don't know what you don't know. You're you're like, you know, oh, yeah, it's it's like somebody being really, really sick in hospital, and and I know that's your story, and that's not my story, and so it feels difficult to use those words with you. That's all right, I can cope with that.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

But what I'd want you to do, I want to kind of I want to kind of press you a bit on that, and I want you to help me. Well, I want you to break it down a bit. I want you to break it down just for for listeners, in terms of what it is that they might see that you that might give you alarm bells.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

The lack of understanding of trauma symptoms that aren't easily resolved. So there are some trauma symptoms um that are hyper-aroused, hyper-arousal trauma symptoms like aggression and anger and hypervigilance and all of those that are external, and um you can see them. And I think as a rule, society now is getting a lot better with those. We're beginning to see behavior, and we are beginning, which is extraordinary. I mean, who would have known 15 years ago that people would know us? Yeah, wonder what's happened to them. You know, that deserves a big clap. Hooray! It's good news, but we're good at what we can see physically still. We're not good at what we can't see, and it's the invisible trauma symptoms that are hidden beyond the physical eye, that aren't mentioned, that aren't given language to, or or things like dissociation, which arguably is my favourite subject because it's kind of the deepest of the deep of the deep. And and people would use the word dissociation to sound professional when they actually just mean zoning out. And zoning out is a real thing for every human, but it's not dissociation. Dissociation is a complex fragmentation of the subconscious, which requires real skill to be able to be trauma recovery focused about, but that's not mentioned, and instead they say, Yes,

What Diluted Language Costs People

SPEAKER_00 18:20

we'll talk about dissociation. And again, I want to be this kind, considerable person and go, what do you mean by that? Can I check you understand there's a continuum on that? It starts at zoning out, but this this end over here, that's when some of the children in your class are becoming like a dog sometimes, or one minute are very quiet, and then the next minute are uh shouting like a completely deranged human. And then the next minute they're totally fine and academic and brilliant at the top of their class. We need language for that, that stays language for that. And people keep adopting complex language to sound a bit clever when they're misusing it. And and I don't think any of them are bad people. I don't think that. I think they're trying to help. But I and that's where I'm I'm I'm I don't know what to say, so I don't say anything. I'm I'm a silent observer, not sure how to comment, so I don't comment. And if someone told me, I'd probably go, great, because it's a difficult conversation to have unless they want to know the answer.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

And then I'm about it. Yeah, I mean, I guess the problem with having that conversation is that it has the potential to evoke the feelings of shame. Which is, you know, not what we want to be called.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

It's really tricky, isn't it? Yeah, really, really hard. Yeah, it is. Um, but I think that's where I have a I think you might have been in the conference, uh, my conference when I I showed it, I show it quite often. I have a thing, I love the word continuum, it just helps our language a bit, and I have a continuum of role where I say, you know, when I gave birth, I didn't really want a surgeon because that would indicate that I'm not managing to do something. Now I did have a surgeon, I've had several C-sections, but my aim was to be this perfect human where I could just, you know, squeeze a bit and out popped a baby, in which case, really I didn't even need a nurse with that. I needed a buddy, and a buddy's great at that point. And and next stage, probably I might have needed a nurse that just understood a little bit of how to give birth. And then, you know, if I had to get a doctor, okay, well, give me an epidural, but I didn't really want to be cut open. I've had all of those things because I've had a lot of kids, and then none of them are more important than the other, they're different roles, and some people feel utterly like they've their purpose in life is to be a nurse. And I'm like, brilliant! You're gonna support people and you're gonna know so much about the human body and what medications work and what to do. Whereas surgeons are very specialist, and my my passion would be that in the mental health and the trauma world, we wouldn't be hierarchical, just like in the doctor world. I to me that's not a hierarchy, but but we would be sitting within our different skill bases and gift

Misused Terms And Hidden Symptoms

SPEAKER_00 21:10

bases and knowledge bases, and we'd be able to help people within that. So we have the first aiders doing first aid. My goodness, don't come to me with an arm that looks a bit broken and I might squeal, because I might squeal. But give me a complex situation if somebody that you know wants to keep killing themselves because they're not coping with life and and their their entire history is horrific, and I will roll up my arms and I will do everything I can to help that person. We're all different. And if we could work as a team with our differences, we could actually work so well around each other. And and and my model has that where we have therapeutic mentors who who have got some experience with children, and it could be as a parent, or it could be that they've worked with in lots of different sectors with children, and they've done 12 days' training. And then our therapeutic mentor. In my model, they do all the safety and stability work and the building relationship work and the sensory work before they hand over to the therapist. Where I say that's the surgery work. We do the bit where it is a little bit volatile. There is a little bit of risk of it going wrong, to be honest. That's what we do. And we're trained to do that, we're regulated, we're assured to do that. And then we hand them back to a therapeutic mentor to do all the fun stuff and the well done. You've done such a great job. Let's help you build your story, your integrative narrative. And that to me, and it's obviously more complicated than that, but to me, that means we're working together with different gifts and different skills. You know, I get bored after a while with playing ping pong. Give me a problem, and I'm happier. But some of my staff that I employ could play ping pong all day, and what they're actually doing is changing the neurobiology and the nervous system of a child while they're hitting the ball with their little bat. They are phenomenal humans, and they're doing something that I can't do that well, because I have to breathe deeply to have patience. They're very at it. I want to dive into the deep end so we work as a team. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah. So if we're thinking about, I suppose when you say you see these training courses, and you know, I'm thinking immediately, and I think this has been discussed in one of the other podcasts as well, around memes and um TikTok and Instagram and short videos and a lot of language with no substance. I think that's what you're kind of speaking to. It's like people have a language now, but haven't necessarily done the work that underpins that language, and that's that's really um that's really difficult. Uh, because how do you kind of cope with that? I mean, what do you think that's done, the the way we live now, um with social media in that way? What do you think that's done for young people's understanding of trauma?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

It's an absolute disaster. Yeah, I I just as you know, I'm doing a doctorate at the moment and I've I'm just finishing today my year two. Um and I've just I've just written an essay about the the impact of social media on children's brains and how devastating that is. Um, and actually, you know, a friend of ours, Ellie Hanson, she came and did um uh a keynote around because she works really high up in in helping things change around sexual exploitation, particularly um around social media. And the stats that she gave are horrific. Of I don't know if I'm I don't know if I have to do trigger warnings and things, but like

Matching Roles To Clinical Complexity

SPEAKER_00 25:00

if it's okay to talk about it, like sexual exploitation stats are are happening all over the place. But the worst thing for me around it is it's being normalised behaviour. That's been normalised for children and young people. So tiny little people are growing up thinking, oh that's what I'm gonna have to do soon. And so they're they're they are actually being traumatised. They actually are, but they wouldn't know that because they're thinking that's normal. But at the same time, somebody that might be struggling to sit still for an hour in school is thinking that there's something wrong with them, because I don't really know many children that do like sitting still or ever have liked sitting still, still in school. So I think that's normal behaviour. But so what's normal is is being seen as a problem, and maybe there's something wrong with them, and what actually isn't normal is being normalized, which I think has called this cause this extreme catastrophic explosion to occur in our children and young people who are making friends with chatbots and thinking that that's a relationship with no facial interaction, no nervous system impact, just and then they wonder why they can't feel anymore. I think that whole that whole thing is probably another podcast, but that that whole thing is has caused more devastation than research can keep up with right now. And um and I still don't think any of us quite know what to do because we can't keep saying stop it. There needs we need more youth groups that have all been shut down, we need more creative spaces that there is no funding for, we need more hangouts and drop-ins and cafes that are free for young people and and older children to to be able to access actual relationship and actually played card games and community.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

We need community, we need each other, you know, with people and people need each other. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Um yeah, there's no way out of that. There's no there is literally no way out of we need each other, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Absolutely, and there is a quote, and of course, now I can't remember who said it because you know, um, I remember so little these days that happened. But uh I think I think uh Stephen Porges might have brought it to um to my attention uh to do with the the fittest is actually the per the people who can most connect with others. That actually the idea of the the fittest being the the strongest and the fastest and actually kind of really misses the point that the fittest among us are those that can connect um with each other so that we've got each other because without without each other we're we're a bit we're a bit lost, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah, we really are, and yet I think there's shame in that sometimes still. Of course, that huge and and I was talking to somebody earlier this morning about the can't remember who, but it was about the the pandemic of isolation and loneliness, which is leading to the screen issue and the social media and everything issue because people are aren't sitting within the window of tolerance, they're generally sitting in hypo aroused, completely numb and unfeeling, and so they need to go way up to feel, feel, feel so they're they're now engaging with things online that aren't okay to engage in, just to feel alive, and then they can't sit in the middle, and so they're sitting either on the bottom in in their kind of numbers in their classes or in in their workplaces, desperate to get back to gaming or or something interesting online, um, which is often depicting the harm of others, which is why I'm concerned particularly about it, and and that's how our society is.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

And we need, of course, the adults around the children is is where we need to be supporting them to you know be more available. But actually, adults are really struggling with being available because they need to work

Social Media And Youth Trauma Confusion

SPEAKER_02 29:10

so much because of a costly living crisis. You know, it's it's uh we're you know, I mean, we're going we're going to end on some hope, but just just sort of we're not really in great times, right? We're not really in great nick, and I think that is worth naming because lots of us are holding that um and struggle with that and have to move in and out of uh what's going on in the world as well, because I know for me, I don't want to not know what's going on in the world. Um, I'm not that person. I'm curious, I want to know what's happening, but I can't sit in there. I have to, I have to step back and withdraw from time to time. And I imagine that's how lots of people cope with still knowing what's going on while at the same time trying to protect some kind of sense of well-being, because it would just be very easy to be incredibly overwhelmed by everything that's going on out there. And if you've got loads and loads of stuff going on in here as well, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah, no, it really is. Yeah. But do you know what? I think what what does give me hope? I've I've spent the last two days in training and it was in so it felt like an underground room. It had no windows and it was all it was no windows, none. So it was all quite black with fancy light.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Could you not arrive and say, I'm I'm not I'm not doing that? This is like unwell, because I have to say, if I've arrived somewhere and there's no windows, I will comment that there are no windows and this isn't really suitable for people and training and spending a day. Are you better behaved than me?

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Um, on this occasion, I I I didn't feel the liberty to. There was one the the back door went to a cafe with huge windows. Okay. I kept my eyes on the back door, but the people looking at my face could not see the back door. And there was a massive screen behind me that's occasionally did show some pretty pictures. Um, but it was really difficult, and I was quite shocked when I I left Sunday late evening, and people were wearing shorts. I was like, Why are you wearing shorts? You went in here and it was the winter and it came out, and spring had occurred, yeah. Oh, it's well weird. But my point wasn't actually about that. My point was I met so many people doing amazing things. Yeah, and that's that's I think that's the hope place. There are so many people leaning in, wanting to learn, wanting to do what they can that that share our concern about about both the the diluted language and the screen problems that you know are our poor children and young people that the behaviour that's been normalized and and the behavior that hasn't been normalized. I think there's so many people out there working so hard and doing so much. And I and I think what I fear sometimes in my passion is that it sounds like I'm getting it right and this is the only way to do it. And that's never what I think. What I think is all of us bringing our different brilliances, because you know, we only know what we know and we're only brilliant at some things when we all come together. The truth, it's it's it's like uh it's like a good party where we all bring some food and drink, and it you're like, whoa, this is nice. Look at all this stuff I never would have thought of. Do you know what?

SPEAKER_02 32:33

I'm so glad you've brought that up because I have I have I have the same sort of relationship with LinkedIn that I know many people do. It's a kind of love-hate relationship, isn't it? Like you know you want to be there, but actually you go on there and you just come away with uh feelings of not doing enough, uh feelings of uh you know inadequacy or whatever it does, it evokes something all the time, I find when I go on there. But do you know what I love the most about going on to LinkedIn? It's looking at what everybody's doing and doing, not not the people who are putting out their live CD uh CV, but people who are genuinely talking about the different things that they're doing, they're contributing, the difference they're making. I just I always come away and I just think, but I'm connected to the most amazing people, and that's been one of the greatest gifts of this work, I think, is that you know, because imagine if we worked in a bank, we'd have to hang out with bankers, you know. But we we we we work in this environment where all the people are just you know, yeah, apart from the odd one, most of the people are absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah, they are, and they care deeply. I I I mean, I I I might not know, but from those I interact with, they all seem to be people that deeply care and are generally just constricted by finance because there's no there's not enough money for children and young people and adults anywhere that that are in need, really. And so they are authentically constricted by that and by time, because none of us quite have enough. So time and money is what's often stopping really excellent practice happening, and particularly in these days. You know, when I first started um one of the first charities, the Trauma Recovery Centre, we had we had grants thrown at us. Nowadays, I don't know what we do to get grants. I don't know what nobody knows. What what what did you do? How did you do it? Like, we don't know anymore, because there just isn't enough money, and and and it's meaning that lots of people are doing the best they can, including us. I don't think we're doing more than the best we can

Connection As Protection From Collapse

SPEAKER_00 34:45

with the little resources we have. But together we are making a difference. It's not quite enough, and we all know that, and we have to acknowledge that because the need is rising, and the impact of COVID, and the impact of screens, and the impact of some ridiculous things that are happening within the education system, and ridiculous things happening in the mental health system, and all the systems actually are leading to more and more distressed humans. But when we do cling together, support each other, we've got each other's back, we le believe the best about each other, we can see amazing things happen actually. Betsy, it's been wonderful speaking to you.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having me. Such a privilege.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

You've been listening to the Trauma Resonance Resilience podcast with me, your host, Lisa Cherry, brought to you straight from the heart of the knowledge that high quality relationships are the cornerstone of learning, healing, and growing. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing or reviewing. Until next time.